Navigating Faith and Heritage with Jake Harmer Journey A Decade Never to be Forgotten

Jethro D. Jones: Okay, welcome everybody
to a decade, never to be Forgotten.

This is the episode for April, and
we are interviewing Jake Harmer.

And, uh, for those of you who
are new, just wanted to give

a little background here.

What we're doing over the next decade
is we're interviewing 12 different

people about their lives over the
next decade, about how it's going to

be a decade never to be forgotten.

So this is, uh, me and Jake talking
for April of 2025, and then we'll come

back and revisit this conversation
every year for the next 10 years,

and, um, see what trials he's going
through, what changes are happening,

uh, what struggles he's facing, what
celebrations he has, all that stuff.

So, Jake, to start out, uh, let's
start with what led you to this point?

What brought you to where
you're at right now?

Jake Harmer: Yeah, where am I right now?

Jethro D. Jones: I know, right?

Jake Harmer: Um, so I am married,
been married 10 years this August.

I've got three kids with
another one on the way in July.

Um, live in St. George, Utah,
which is kind of my dream location.

This is where.

having grown up in Utah Valley with
all the snow and everything, and

then served a mission in Brazil and
enjoyed two years of no snow uh, this

is where we really wanted to end up.

And so, uh, kind of the way Covid
worked out, I got to work remote

and then switched to a different
employer that let me stay remote.

And so that's how we
ended up in St. George.

Um,

Jethro D. Jones: So people are gonna

wonder what, what mission
in Brazil, because lots of

people have served in Brazil.

My dad, my uncle, my ne, or not my
uncle, my brother-in-law, my nephew.

So lots of people in Brazil.

Where were you at?

Jake Harmer: Yeah.

So, um, I, I studied German
for four years in high school.

My parents both

served missions in Austria.

I'm the oldest in my family, and so I was.

Very much expecting a
German speaking mission.

And then I went to Hi Preto, Brazil

Jethro D. Jones: Oh

Jake Harmer: so the interior of Brazil, I
always say it's like the Omaha of Brazil

It's just sugarcane fields everywhere.

Lots and lots of farmers, lots of,
uh, industrial agriculture out there.

Um, yeah,

it was very much a huge surprise
to get called to Brazil.

I did have two uncles that served there.

Um,

yeah, everybody, you know, they're
35 plus missions there, so it's,

it's not all that uncommon.

Jethro D. Jones: Yeah.

Well that's pretty cool.

Um, and so you got used to the weather
and you said, that's where I want

to end up living is somewhere nice

Jake Harmer: Yeah.

Yeah.

Well, it was funny, um, when I got back
from my mission, uh, so I had kind of

been dating my wife before, uh, we, we
were in the same freshman ward at BYU.

Uh, we were the FHE Mom and dad
And so we say that it was an

arranged marriage by our bishop,

but we, uh.

Jethro D. Jones: awesome.

Jake Harmer: Yeah, so we had kind of
dated, you know, this pre mission, so

I knew if I, when I left to my mission,
she would probably either be on a

mission or be married when I got home.

'cause that's who she was.

She wanted to serve mission and stuff.

And because of our age ages
being the same, that meant that

when I got back she'd be gone.

So it was like, well this is fun.

You're awesome.

Good luck with life.

You know, we wrote a little bit, um,
it's funny, the way I remember it was

that it was pretty just, uh, writing as
friends and as I've gone back through

some of the letters, I'm like, oh no,
I definitely really cared about her.

Uh, anyway, when I was in the MTC was
when the age changed for missionaries.

And so I remember my first
thought was my brother.

'cause suddenly our four year
overlap was only gonna be three

and that was gonna be really cool.

Um, and then I thought about her and
I was like, oh, whoa, now she can go.

And that means we'll get back.

And we ended up getting
back the same month.

When I got home, though, she
wanted nothing to do with me

or I got home like three weeks before her.

And, uh, yeah, she, she got home
and she wanted to marry a Nephi

and all she had was a Jacob,

so

Jethro D. Jones: Yeah.

. That's tough, man.

So who, uh, where did
she go on her mission?

Jake Harmer: she went to,
uh, St. Paul, the Twin Cities

in, uh, Minnesota.

So, yeah, we

joke about that too, that I went to
San Paulo, uh, the state of San Paulo.

She went to St. Paul, Minnesota,

and my little brother went to
San Pablo in the Philippines.

Jethro D. Jones: huh,

Jake Harmer: Uh, thank
goodness for the Catholics.

Huh.

Jethro D. Jones: Yeah.

Jake Harmer: But, um,

Jethro D. Jones: everything

Jake Harmer: yeah, so she served
in Minnesota and, uh, spoke,

uh, a language called Koran.

It's a refugee,

a group of

refugees from Myanmar, Burma,
uh, came through Thailand and

then ended up all over the place.

But she was in that community for like
15 outta the 18 months of permission.

Um.

is another story in and of itself.

But yeah, so, uh, she got home, I
got home winter hit and I was walking

around campus just shivering all the
time with three coats on, and she's

walking around with a sweater, and

she's just fine 'cause she's been
in Minnesota, I've been in Brazil.

Um, and then, yeah, after that,
so I finished school, uh, studied

supply chain management at BYU.

Um, and then we moved to Phoenix for
me for work for four, about four years.

And then after four years in Phoenix,
we, yeah, wanted to be closer to

family, but not, not too close

And so ended up here in St. George.

Jethro D. Jones: Cool.

Good.

So what, uh, what else has brought
you to where you're at now?

I.

Jake Harmer: Yeah.

So on a, on a spiritual note, um.

I kind of, one thing my aunt told
me one time about her testimony, she

said, people would always ask her, you
know, do you know, how do you know?

How do you know that?

You know?

And she said, well, one time I remember
praying and saying, heavenly father,

please tell me if the church is true.

I know it's true, but please
tell me And she said she stopped

herself and was like, oh, okay.

Yeah, I get it.

You know, and that's kind
of when the spirit hit her.

And I think it's similar for me,
like I, I never doubted growing up.

I grew up with, uh, just
an excellent family.

I wanna say I was like seventh
generation elder, Harmer, And,

you know, family goes back
to Navu and Kirtland on, on

both sides all the way back.

And just really powerful
legacies of faith.

Their grandparents served missions,
uh, senior missions and things.

And anyway, um.

So, yeah, never really had a doubt.

I, I, I kind of look at a
testimony in three ways.

Um, this is from a, an EFY lesson When
I was a teenager, they talked about

there being three facets of a testimony.

You have your intellectual, um, spiritual,
and then kind of, uh, your doing your

physical testimony or the things you do.

So, summed it up as
head, heart, and hands.

And so I've always felt like I've
had a really strong intellectual

testimony of the gospel.

Um, and I think I credit a lot of that
to reading the work in the glory books

as a young teenager and stuff like that,
where I, I did kind of dive into church

history at that level and, and, um,
enjoyed studying that, those parts of it.

Um, for me, the, the spiritual side was
always a little bit of the challenge

of, okay, I, what do I feel though?

And that's, again, just throughout my
life, like definitely more intellectual

than kind of a feelings person.

Uh, so for me, getting that.

Feelings testimony was, I went to
Navu when I was about 15 years old

and went into a grove of trees just,
uh, below the temple and talked a

little bit about, uh, is where the
transfiguration of Brigham Young happened.

And, uh, they had lots of general
conferences right there and things.

And anyway, we split up.

My dad said, eh, take some time.

And so I went out and knelt down
and prayed, and, and that was

kind of where I received my first
spiritual witness of the gospel.

Um, and so I, I can look back on that.

I think that's really important to, to
look back at those spiritual experiences.

Um, CS Lewis talks about it, um, I think
it was in Meir Christianity, but he says,

you can't live your life looking back
at the most recent, or, you know, at

your, uh, your most recent feast, right?

You have to have that daily bread.

Um.

It is, you know, it's fun to talk about,
oh, Thanksgiving we ate this, you know,

or whatever special meal that you have.

So it's important to remember those, but
you also have to have that daily bread.

And so anyway, I like that comparison
to having spiritual experiences that

yeah, you're gonna have the occasional
really powerful experience, but

most of the time it's just plugging
along on the day-to-day stuff.

Um, so yeah, kind of spiritually,
that's, that's what I had gone through.

Um, one of the bigger challenges
for me growing up came from, uh,

my parents were divorced when
I was seven, and so that, yeah.

That, that, uh, impacts me today
still, you know, it's, it's something

that I think a lot of
people don't think about.

Um, kinda the impact on kids.

And I, I, the biggest blessing for me
is that they both stayed super strong

in the church, uh, rock solid there.

Um, and I. Have both remarried and, and
love my stepmom and my stepdad as well.

And, um, everything has worked
out as, as well as it can.

Obviously, again, there, there are so
many challenges with that and, um, that,

that, that's kind of given me, that's
been my, I don't know, the biggest

challenge that I feel like I faced
as a teenager was dealing with that.

Jethro D. Jones: Yeah.

So I wanna fast forward to right now,
how does that impact your decisions

and things you do with your wife now?

I mean, nobody gets married saying, we're
just gonna stay married for like 10, 15

years and then we're gonna get divorced.

So it's not like you.

Plan that that is the outcome.

But knowing as you do that, your
parents did get divorced and my

parents got divorced, uh, just before
I came home from my mission, so I,

I know that that breakup happens.

How do you, how do you manage and
think and talk about that right now

and what are your thoughts about that?

I mean, in 10 years, it's possible that
you could get divorced even though you

have no intention of doing it right now.

So you know it because it impacted
you then and is still impacting you.

What are your thoughts about it now?

Jake Harmer: Yeah.

Um, so I, I really thought growing
up always that I will, I'm gonna date

my wife for years and years and years
before really, you know, getting married

before, because I don't wanna risk
any, any divorce or anything like that.

And it was really interesting.

It was, it was definitely a
spiritual thing for me as we, as

we dated after our missions, um,
kind of realizing, no, I, I, uh.

I feel like I learned at some
point, probably in the high

school, like soulmates, it's
not, not really a thing, right?

Pick, pick somebody who you can
both strive together to draw closer

to, to our heavenly father, right?

Um, and so yeah, find somebody
you love who's on the same team as

you and, and you can make it work.

Um, and so yeah, that's kind of, I guess
I'm thinking about, yeah, when I was going

to thinking about getting married, that
was when I thought, ah, I always thought

I would date for years and years and
years, but I don't need to do that now.

And so that I, I've definitely
interpreted that as a spiritual prompting.

Um, I, I had always struggled growing
up with, uh, the song families can

be together forever, singing that
in primary and, and everywhere else.

Uh, it was on my mission that I
finally sang at one time in, in a

little branch in Brazil, and, and
it hit me that, okay, yeah, my, my

parents, you know, my family siblings,
that's a different situation, but.

My family, my, my future wife, kids.

Like that's, that's up to me and
that's something I can control.

Um, and so that really shifted again
from that song and kind of, okay,

this is my mindset is I can make
my family what I want it to be.

Um, and anyway, so yeah, things that I, I
do now, um, one thing every night we read.

A chapter in the scriptures
and pray before going to bed.

And that's even if it's been a
rough day and we're upset with

each other, like that's, we just
do that, that's every single night.

Uh, and I think that's
a, a powerful thing.

'cause again, you're, it kind of refocus
like, okay, even though I'm upset that you

did this, you're upset that I did this.

We're gonna come together and say, okay,
we're gonna read, read the scriptures

and connect with Heavenly Father.

And usually it's, everything's
fine in the morning.

'cause we were just tired 'cause we
have so many kids running around Um,

so that, yeah, that's one thing I, I
always give out as advice is just make

sure you remember what's important.

Um.

We try to have, you know, try to
have date nights and stuff like that.

We have a lot of shared hobbies.

Uh, a lot of 'em are outdoor stuff,
rock climbing, mountain biking, uh,

playing tennis, and a lot of those
are hard to do with young kids.

And so that's definitely been a challenge
I think over the last couple years.

I definitely look forward as my kids get
older, to be able to do those things with

them and for them to be good babysitters.

So I can go with my favorite
climbing partner, which is my wife.

Jethro D. Jones: That's good.

So you, you had a faith remodel.

Tell me about that.

Jake Harmer: Yeah.

So, uh, probably 20 18, 20 19, I, I
really got into, uh, Twitter, which is

probably my my biggest guilty pleasure,

Jethro D. Jones: Yes,
I, I feel you, my friend

Jake Harmer: It's,
yeah, I, I love Twitter.

I hate Twitter.

I love it though.

Oh, I, I started, started using back
in college uh, basically had one friend

and we would basically, uh, just tweeted
each other and, and say dumb stuff.

Um, but then kind of got a little
bit into the political scene.

I think everybody did
around 20 16, 20 18, 20 19.

And without diving into that, I, I just
felt like Twitter was a place where you

could see unfiltered, uncensored news and
kinda see what the world was really like.

And with that, um, LDS Twitter
is its own just wild, wild west.

Um, and

so I was never, never very active there.

Um, I, I eventually deleted my original
account from when I was in college.

'cause I thought, no, I'm sure there's
stuff in there that could get me canceled.

um, always worked for employers who
would not hesitate to fire me for

something I tweeted in 2011, you know,
and so I deleted the account and then.

Uh, last year or so, I've kinda gotten
back into it, but, and, and tried to

post more rather than just consume.

Um, but yeah, I, so faith remodel,
I, you know, came across some of the

stuff that you see online, the, the
CES letter and all that, all, all these

people trying to just tear down faith.

And I remember, um, it, it wasn't,
I definitely, it, it was never a, a

remodel as far as actions or anything
like that, but it was the first time

I ever was like, what if it's not?

Like, what if all these things that
I've believed my whole life, what if

everything I've studied and, and all
the books I've read and everything,

what if these things are not true?

Or, you know, what, what would that mean?

I remember looking

at the CES letter and, and, uh, and,
and a take down of it at the same time.

Right.

I think the issue people run into
is they look at one-sided garbage

and don't look at both sides.

Um, so I remember glancing through that
and coming across early on some of the,

uh, complaints about Joseph Smith stealing
names from the Bible or, or, yeah.

Stealing names from the Bible.

Uh, as plagiarism.

Right.

He plagiarized

and one of 'em was
Jerusalem, and I was like,

seriously?

They're gonna put in this book that the
bookmarks not true because Joseph used

the name Jerusalem in the Americas.

Like they came from Jerusalem.

They would've used the name
Jerusalem to rename a city.

Like, how stupid is that?

You know, we have New York,
we have New Jersey we like.

Anyway, that was one
where I was just like.

Okay.

These guys are, they're
not good faith actors.

They are dishonest and, and, uh, anyway,
so it kind of, I think over the course of

a couple of months, I really dived into
some of both sides, but also just kind

of learned about the apologetic scene
and, and got really interested in that.

Read a bunch of stuff from Fair started.

I started listening to podcasts
probably around then too.

into a lot of those and, then
probably 2020, I read Temple

and Cosmos by, Hugh Nibley.

And for me, the Temple had always
been, it's, nice to go there and feel

peaceful and escape the world, but
really didn't understand anything.

And then to read that book,
it was suddenly like, whoa.

It was like seeing the Matrix

and I, dived into a lot of Nibley stuff.

Lots of, just lots of interesting ideas.

and for me that was like kind of a.
A way to solidify my testimony, okay,

the way the temple works, the ancient
history of the biblical temple and pre

biblical temple and every, there's no
way Joseph Smith made that stuff up.

So again, I look at it intellectually,
but then also on the spiritual side, just

remembering that the strong spiritual
experiences I've had throughout my life.

But anyway, so kinda that I,
yeah, I call it faith through.

It definitely wasn't a faith crisis
or anything, but there were a few

weeks or even months where I was
like, okay, what do I believe?

Why do I believe it?

And now I feel like I come back
at it with, okay, I, I can lay

it all out and say, this is
why I believe on the spiritual

level, on the intellectual level.

Um, and frankly, to that point,
uh, I, I hadn't done much.

I. As far as like service in the church.

You know, when I was at BYU, our
calling was Ward Choir member

uh, moved down to Phoenix and we were,
you know, primary teachers for a few

years, like all young couples are.

And, and that was a blast.

Um, when we moved up here to St.
George, I kind of felt a little bit

guilty, almost like, well, I,
I know having lived in Brazil,

there's so many areas that just
need a good, strong family.

And if I'm moving to St. George, like
am I just running away from, from what

heavenly father needs me to do, you know?

And, and my reason for moving here
was pretty much, uh, closer to

family and wanted to be here in the
outdoors So it was kind of selfish,

you know, I'm like, I don't, I, I
feel a little bit guilty about that.

Um, but then when we moved into this
ward, I got put in with the Priest Corps

and that was just the best calling ever.

It was, it was so fun.

Um, being able to,

Jethro D. Jones: Alright,

well let's, let's pause for just a second.

'cause I wanna go back to the faith
remodel because, um, I. You, you, you

said I, I started questioning all these
things that I've been learning for the

last, you were like 25 at the time,

the last 25 or so years.

All the stuff that you've been taught.

And it's so funny how
Satan works with that.

That one little doubt

can come in and make you forget the
probably thousands at that point of

different experiences that you had
that affirmed the gospel is true.

And one or two little doubts can then
make you say, oh, maybe it's not.

How do you reconcile that in
your mind, and, and how do you

think about that at this point?

Jake Harmer: Yeah.

So I was listening to an interview this
last week with Alex O'Connor and Jacob

Hanson from Thoughtful Faith, um, Alex
O'Connor's a. Big name atheist with

million YouTube subscribers, and he
interviewed a member of the church and

Alex O'Connors, he's looking at it,
he kind of looked at it from the, if

there's a fly in the, what's the line?

A, a fly in the, um, the ointment, right?

There's a fly in the ointment
or whatever, whatever.

Anyway, something like that.

Jethro D. Jones: That's the right one.

Jake Harmer: if there's a fly
in the ointment or I'd say

like a fly in the soup, right?

If there's a fly in the soup, then
I don't want to drink the soup.

Um, I think that's one way to look at it.

Uh, I like Jacob gave an explanation
of, okay, if I hand you this pill and

say, take this pill, it will make you
infinitely happy for the rest of forever.

And you say, oh, where'd you get it?

You saw an angel gave it to me.

You're gonna go, ha,
get outta here weirdo.

But if you, if a ton of people start
taking this pill and they are infinitely

happy and better people and everything,
and then you say, Hey, what is that?

Where did you get it?

You say, an angel gave it to me.

Then you're gonna go, okay, hang
on this, this might be interesting.

So it's almost, if you're
gonna look at it and say, well,

there's one fly in the ointment.

Then, and I'm not gonna take the ointment.

You also have to look at it from
the flip perspective of, okay, I

look at something like Nahum, right
in the, in the Book of Mormon.

That is, that's a bullseye
that I, you it is implausible

that Joseph Smith made that up.

Like, that is impossible.

Uh, or a Maja Maja from the
Book of Enoch, things like that,

like that is a dead bullseye.

And it's impossible that
Joseph Smith made that up.

Um, versus you look at, let's say
something like, um, the Book of

Abraham pages that we have from the,
uh, scrolls, the parchment, right.

Not matching what Joseph Smith
translated it as or interpreted it as.

Well, it's, it's, uh.

Plausible.

You know, it, it, it is, it is
entirely plausible that there

were lots of other scrolls.

Well, we know there were, that
they matched or that it was a

different type of translation, right.

Rather than an interpretation or whatever.

Anyway, kind of looking at impossibilities
versus plausibility, um, versus Yeah.

Possible versus plausible.

Uh, if that makes sense.

Um, so kinda look at that of looking
for, okay, if I find something that is

absolutely impossible versus implausible,
let's say, you know, you say there are no

horses in the Book of Mormon, for example.

Okay, well the only way to be,
to say that it's impossible is to

excavate all of the Americas Right?

So

that will never be proven.

Now it can be unlikely, but to find
something like, yeah, for Joseph

Smith to Guess Naham, that is as
near as impossible as I can say like

it, it wasn't known until the 1940s
or whatever it was, or seventies.

Anyway, like you just can't
guess something like that.

And so anyway, that's where I kinda
looked at that flying the ointment.

It's like, well also you have
to look if there's one just dead

bullseye, like how is that possible?

Anyway, I don't know if that makes sense.

Jethro D. Jones: Yeah.

Well, and and I, I appreciate
that idea because we all know

that Joseph Smith wasn't perfect.

Jake Harmer: Mm-hmm

Jethro D. Jones: Like the reason
why he got maroni to visit him

was because he was repenting

of his imperfection.

Right?

So it's not like he was, or that any
of us think that he was some perfect

person who totally understood the
beginning from the end, in the very

moment that God appeared to him.

No, none of us believed that.

And if we do, then we just don't
understand the, his whole life, you know?

And so, so we have to recognize that
he was in the unenviable position.

Of learning about the gospel while
he was building the church, and I

mean, can you even imagine , like
how difficult that would be?

Jake Harmer: I was thinking about,
can you imagine if everything

you said got written down?

Sometimes the day of,
sometimes 20 years later,

Jethro D. Jones: Yeah,

Jake Harmer: and then we're looking
at this and we're saying, well,

well, Joseph Smith said that
there were Quakers on the moon.

You know?

It's like, well, okay.

Somebody else said that.

Somebody else said that.

Joseph Smith

mentioned the possibility of there
being Quakers on the moon, which

was a common belief at the time.

Right.

We don't say that.

We don't know anywhere that he said he
believed that we just say he mentioned it.

Right.

But somebody wrote down like it's just,
again, you almost feel bad for the, I

don't know, the anties because we, can I
say squirrel our way out of any quote or

any belief by, probably by, saying, well.

We don't know if he said that because
it was written down by somebody else.

Jethro D. Jones: Yeah.

Jake Harmer: But also, you shouldn't
put your faith in those things

because Yeah, we don't know what
he said and what he believed.

'cause I, man, how many times am I sitting
around a campfire having really fun,

deep doctrine, speculative discussions,

Jethro D. Jones: Yeah.

Yep.

And, and then here's the other part
that as we go through these faith

remodels, which is a natural part
of life that you grow and develop in

your testimony, and sometimes it takes
things to make you question it, and

then you become more reaffirmed or you
get more questions, you know, everybody

goes through that at, at some point.

But the thing is, as my friend Joel told
me the other day, you, you can take like

one of these little tiny things and,
and say, this little thing is wrong,

and it may or may not be wrong, but when
you take the totality of everything,

then it's like, ah, you know, it's
really difficult for you to say that.

That there's no way that this is true,
that this is a hundred percent false.

It, it's just, unless you are
intentionally like that is your

whole mission to prove it's false.

It's really hard for anybody who's
reasonable to say, yeah, I, you're

right, this is, this is wrong.

Like, it's really difficult to,
to make that stretch, you really

have to be intentionally against
it to, to make that stretch.

Because if you're not intentionally
against it and you're just curious

and asking questions, then it's pretty
easy to see how everything that he

taught as a, as taken as a whole is
good and leads us to the right place.

And it's like the, the pill example
you gave that, that I liked, um, which

is this pill is working and somebody,
you know, people pass it to each

other and then somebody's like, well,
where did this actually come from?

Like, what doctor invented this?

Well, it was an angel that showed up.

Gave it to someone and you're like, oh,
well then you're gonna reject it because,

because of that.

But you've seen the fruit of
it in all these other places.

It's just really hard
for that to make sense in

Jake Harmer: Well, and, and
we analyze the pill and it's

scientifically impossible, right?

that's, that's the thing, is, okay,
well somehow it must, you know, a

big bang must have invented the pill.

You know?

It's like,

okay, yeah,

You just re-engineered God.

Good.

Congratulations,

Jethro D. Jones: Which is,
which is even harder to believe.

Um, speaking of, uh, LDS Twitter,
I saw a meme the other day that,

that had, uh, Jesus Christ appearing
from the tomb and somebody saying,

there's no way this is possible.

And then it had somebody else saying,
you know, after the earth cooled for

trillions of years, a lightning bolt
struck a pool of amino acids, and

then life was created and the person's
like rejoicing that, that's right.

And it's like, wait a minute, , that
doesn't make any sense either.

Jake Harmer: we all believe in miracles.

Um, it's, it's funny to, yeah.

You either say there was an unmoved
mover created everything at the

beginning, or you name it God, right?

like, uh, yeah.

The question is, does he interact with us?

And that's where your personal spiritual
experience is, and the miracles that

you've seen or that you've heard
from others or read from others,

that's where that's so important.

Jethro D. Jones: Yeah, which is a good
segue back to you being called to the

young men's when you moved to St. George.

Finish that story.

Jake Harmer: Yeah.

Yeah.

So I just, I, I think after having
spent a lot of time on Twitter and,

and uh, I just kind of felt like, man,
this next generation is just hosed.

You know, they're, they're
eating Tide pods, they are doing

some weird stuff out there.

And, and then suddenly getting to
know these actual 15 to 18-year-old

boys, I was like, no, these guys
are, they're experiencing things

that, like, they're going through
challenges that I never had to deal

with as a teenager, which is crazy.

'cause that was 10 years prior.

You know, I, things like
talking to them all the time.

He'd be like, Hey, when, when the
bishop here, when he was in high school,

if he wanted pornography, he had to
go find a magazine somewhere, like,

you know, like for me it was okay, I
would need to go search things on the

computer and find, you know, whatever.

Like for you guys, it is crammed down
your social media feed every single day.

Like it's kind of, you know,
you had to actively seek it.

Back in the day, uh, then it was
accessible, but you had to go seek

it, and now it's crammed down people's
throats all day long, every day.

And so I, man, the things that
the they're facing also good

is evil, and evil is good.

You know that, that's true today, man.

Where we look at the world and the world
says, no, this is evil, this is good.

And it's completely opposite
of what's true again.

I, I feel like even when I was in
high school, it was not that way.

Good was still good.

Evil was still evil.

And so

anyway, getting to know these young
men, I, I was just blown away by how

impressive they were, um, spiritually.

And it, it was, it was really good
for me, a lot of fun to be able to, to

start teaching again, you know, teaching
those classes and, and ministering

to them as I, uh, took 'em rock
climbing or camping or whatever else.

Um, and then after,

oh

Jethro D. Jones: And,

real quick, Jake, these, these
experiences of being out in the world,

I. With the boys is so powerful and
gives you a, a way to connect with them

away from the, the distractions that
happen even in church every Sunday.

You know, being able to be out and
about and seeing and living in God's

creations and like literally climbing
a rock that God created for our use.

That's, those are pretty amazing things
and, and again, hard to argue against

the beauty of God's creations when
you're literally out there enjoying it.

Jake Harmer: Yeah, I, I joke with so I, I
basically got, probably by now it's like

six or seven of 'em, but originally one
or two of 'em really to get into climbing.

'cause I needed a climbing partner,
And so, um, and now they're both, those

first two are both out on missions and,
and it's just, it's a bummer 'cause

can't climb anymore, but it's awesome,
you know, so fun to see them go.

And,

uh, but I always joked with
them, like, sometimes you're

climbing and you're just shaking.

We have what's called a sewing machine
leg when you're, I don't know, the tendons

are just so tense and you're standing on
a tiny little hold that your whole leg

just starts, going back and forth and
back and forth and you can't control it.

Um, and then you'll reach up and sometimes
there's just the perfect little hold.

I'm like that right there.

That is evidence of God,

Jethro D. Jones: Yeah.

Jake Harmer: you know,
some of these holds.

I'm like, that's not nature.

Come on.

I'm like, somebody put
that there, But yeah.

So anyway, I really liked
working with the young man.

I kind of restored my faith in humanity
and the next generation and everything.

And, and, uh.

Then after about a year of
that, got called in to meet with

the state president one day.

And, and uh, they called me to be
on the high council and I was like,

Uh, yeah.

As soon as I walked outta
there, the bishop called me

and he's like, I'm so sorry.

I really wanted to keep you,
but state president said, you

know, I'm like, well, okay.

I don't, I don't even know what the
high council is, what it does, like

I told 'em like, I know I'm supposed
to tell everyone that the state

presidency loves them and I'm supposed
to give a boring talk once a month,

Jethro D. Jones: There you go.

Jake Harmer: And so, yeah.

So that, that was, that, that
was, uh, that also it felt like,

oh, that's the end of my youth.

Like, will I ever go back to the
primary to teach But I miss those days.

Right.

Um, yeah, kinda the death of my youth.

Um, but it, it was also, it
was, it was so good for me.

Um, I don't know that I did anything that
helped anybody while I was in the high

council, but it was so fun for me to.

So, so good for me to be
part of Ward Councils.

Again, I hadn't done that
since my mission, right.

To be part of, uh, stake high council
meetings and things like that.

Uh, just to see kind of behind the
scenes how the church actually works.

So, so amazing just to see all
the ministry that's going on

within Ward, behind the scenes.

Um, I had an experience a few months
ago where a neighbor passed away and,

uh, went over to the hospital, or he,
sorry, he, he had a stroke, uh, went

over to the hospital and get there.

And there are four other guys from the
Elders Corps there, just ready to give a

blessing and, and care about this guy and
just, yeah, the church is good, you know?

And so I, I just, where I was
kind of going with this is I had

the, I had the spiritual witness,
I had the intellectual witness.

I felt like I hadn't done much
with so head, heart, hands, right?

What, what can I do in the gospel?

'cause you do need all three
of those to be balanced.

And so for me, yeah, kind of working
with the young men and the high council.

So I did that for.

Not quite a year.

And then reorganized.

The bishop, Rick and I got pulled
in as the second counselor So I

got my wish to be back with the
young men, but also a lot more busy

Jethro D. Jones: Yeah.

Yep.

Jake Harmer: anyway, it, it's just,
yeah, it's been great to kind of be back

to focus on doing the gospel, living
the gospel and teaching the gospel.

Um, it is, it's, it's still kind
of funny, like I think about it.

I've never taught an elders quorum lesson.

I've never taught

an adult Sunday school class uh, which
is funny, just kind of how that works.

But yeah, it, it's been really good for
me to develop and, and gain that testimony

of the hands aspect of the gospel, right?

That it really does
work in people's lives.

And I think so often as I was
talking with, the boys, I'm always

telling them like, look at Hollywood.

These people have everything that
society says they should want.

Or Is anyone in Hollywood happy?

I. Do any of them actually have joy?

look at 'em.

None of them are actually happy.

They have everything the world says that
they should have and they're not happy.

I'm like, who's happy?

I'm happy Look around the ward.

these people are happy.

And so I think, yeah.

Why don't give the people a reason
to interrupt their rejoicing, right?

is it Cohor says to Alma,
or Alma says to Cohor

anyway, or one of the anti-Christ
in the Book of Mormon.

Yeah.

So I think about that
a lot like the gospel.

This is the, plan of happiness.

This is how to be happy in this life,
not just how to achieve exaltation.

I.

Jethro D. Jones: Yeah.

Yeah.

That's really powerful.

so these things, they've, brought
you to this place spiritually.

You've served in the church,
you've gained a testimony

intellectually and emotionally.

Um, and, and that's all, that's all good.

Um, what about your work life and
your, your day-to-day, like providing

for your family and, and that piece,
anything there that you wanna touch on?

Jake Harmer: Yeah.

So, um, I never really knew
what I wanted to do as a career.

Um, I was always really good in school.

Uh, school was easy for me.

Um, when I was headed home from my
mission, uh, you know, the last few months

I was supposed to sign up for classes
and I just told my dad to sign me up.

like, I don't want to think about
this right now, so just find

me some classes and sign me up.

And so he went and met with, uh, one
of the guidance counselors and they

suggested supply chain management, which.

I didn't know what that was,
but I was like, okay, sure.

uh, has

a hundred

Jethro D. Jones: what a strange thing
to suggest there, there had to be a

reason why that was suggested because
that sounds like a very, uh, no

offense, boring type of job to get into.

Jake Harmer: Yeah, So,

it was a hundred percent job placement
I think is when my dad picked it, But

also I had, actually, I had worked
in a warehouse through high school

and, and my first year at BYUI worked
in the warehouse there, central stores.

And so I

had kind of that, you know,
that background of understanding

logistics a little bit.

Um, it was in the business school.

Um, I had been very interested in
statistics, uh, and then kind of got that.

Drilled outta me my
freshman year at BYU when I

signed up for a higher
level statistics class.

And it was not a good experience

Jethro D. Jones: Yeah.

Jake Harmer: Um, and so yeah, it
was kind of, I, I liked the math, I

liked the interpersonal stuff too.

And so supply chain
actually was a perfect fit.

It was really funny.

I didn't know what it was, but it ended up

really, uh, yeah, being a good
fit for me, matched my skillset,

matched my interests and things.

So

Jethro D. Jones: Well, and, and I want
to take a second here because this

is something that is so powerful that
people who have, people who love them,

those people who love you, can see
things that you can't necessarily see.

And and your dad, I'm sure.

Was not just like, well what can
I do to just get him registered

for classes and then I don't
have to worry about it anymore?

I'm sure that he was like, what could
I do to help him, like find a major

that will one, provide for his family,
and two, something that he'll be

good at and will actually care about.

And the reason why I know that
is 'cause I have my own kids

and I try to do things that help them,
but also when I'm working with the

youth or or other people, I am like
trying to really understand who they are

so that I can give them the kind of
advice that's gonna be beneficial.

So anything else you want to
add about that with your dad

looking out for you like that?

Jake Harmer: Yeah.

No, it, it, it was just interesting
because it, it did match my

skillset and my interests without
me even knowing what it was.

Um, and so I am very grateful for that.

I, I don't know if he prayed and
went to the temple trying to figure

out what to sign me up for, or if
it was just a guidance counselor

that was like, Hey, everybody gets
a job if you do this major Um.

I knowing my dad, I'm, I'm sure
it was the former, but, um,

yeah, I, I, uh, it's interesting.

I also looked at a lot of, there's a
quote from Boyd Kay Packer, I think,

that said, do you think the Lord cares if
you're a doctor, a lawyer, a bricklayer,

or a, you know, a landscaper, whatever.

He goes, he doesn't care.

He just wants you to be
the best, whatever you are.

Um, and so again, it kind of, I feel
like growing up I had some mindset of,

okay, you need to pick the perfect path.

You need to pick your soulmate.

You need to pick your, you know,
your, uh, the career that you're

supposed to be in and everything.

And it kind of showed me like,
no, there are lots of different

ways to be on the path, right.

Um, anyway, so I, yeah, I studied
that through the four years of school.

Um, and then got a job with an
aerospace company and, and worked

there for four years and then switched
over to a healthcare company now, um,

still doing supply chain management.

It's, it's not,

it's not my, uh.

Something I wanna be
for the rest of my life.

Um, I, I don't feel like I derive that
much meaning, and like, I don't, probably

shouldn't put this on the internet.

I don't know that I see
myself there in 10 years.

Um,

Jethro D. Jones: Well, I mean that's,
that's an interesting thing to, to, to

bring up because a lot of times it's hard,
especially today to stay in the same job

for 10 years and, and especially today,
people will change careers and jobs more

Jake Harmer: Yep.

Jethro D. Jones: than
they have in the past.

And so, you know, the, for me, one of
the things, . That I've been thinking

about a lot is how do you, how do you
set up your situation in your company or

as an employer or an employee to make it
so that people feel comfortable growing

even beyond what you have there to offer.

And, and that's a touchy thing
because we all know that the job

is gonna end at some point, right.

And yet we pretend like it's a forever
thing and it just isn't, you know?

But, but we often act like it is.

Jake Harmer: yeah, I, I think my,
so my dad and my father-in-law

have both been in the same career.

I did, you know, lots of different roles,
but same company their entire careers.

Um, essentially, and I, I, yeah,
I, you know, I'm already on a third

company I've worked for, uh, since
school, and I, so I've done some

entrepreneurial stuff as well.

Uh, coming outta school, I bought a bunch
of rock climbing equipment from China and

sold it locally and, and on the internet.

And, um, I felt like had I
committed to this right at the

beginning, it would've worked out.

You know, I, I made some money,
but it was, it was a good

experiment and it was fun.

Had I actually committed right at the
beginning and thrown some money into

it, I think it would've led somewhere.

Instead, it flamed out as soon
as there were other copycats.

Right.

Um, and then I did a, a website, like
a blog essentially for a couple years.

Me and my wife started, um, I did one
on rock climbing, canyoneering, um,

information and ran ads on that and Amazon
affiliates and, and my wife is a dietician

and so she, she did one kinda on teenage
sports nutrition and we got those up to,

they paid for our mortgage one month.

Then,

um, AI came out, like

literally the next month
chat, GPT was announced.

This is probably October, 2020, what?

2021?

I, I can't remember exactly.

20, 22. Yeah.

Chat.

GPT came out and immediately our
traffic fell by two 10% of what it was.

I mean, it was just, it was just crazy.

We just got killed.

And so, you know, we still have the
sites, but now they bring in like

not even a hundred dollars a month.

And so we

kind of haven't touched
'em for a few years.

So then onto the next thing.

So, uh, yeah, so then I decided
I'll use AI to, to make some

money instead of lose some money

And so, um, this is 2023.

Well, so for a couple years I,
I've wanted a way to share family

history stories with my kids.

I grew up hearing a bunch from my, both
my grandparents, uh, my, my grandpas on

both side are really into family history.

And so I get to hear stories about
the great-grandpa who rode in the

cavalry in World War I and was
promised by, it was, um, Ezra t Benson.

And that his group, his group of boys
from his ward, if none of them did

anything that would embarrass their
mothers, they would all come home alive.

Um, or my fifth great grandpa,
Edward Bunker led a handcar

company across the plains.

Um, anyway, I've heard these
stories growing up and I want a

way to share them with my kids.

Um, and so I was looking at ways to create
children's books out of those stories.

Um, and so, because I dunno,
a lot of the books that I read

to my kids are just fluff.

You know, it's

kind of pointless.

Um, so yeah, that, that
kind of had that idea.

And so I was like, okay, I'm gonna, I pay
a, a family member who's an artist, I. To

make a book, and it just didn't work out.

Like it was gonna be incredibly
expensive, even with the family

discount, and it was gonna take forever.

Okay.

Now it maybe it, it's doable
for one book, but I wanted a

library about my ancestors, right?

And so then I thought, well,
maybe I can learn how to draw

and I tried that for a minute.

Um, and I was never gonna
get anywhere where I could do

anything that mattered, you know,
anything that I was not embarrassed to

show people And so then, um, October,
November, 2023 is when Dolly came

out as the first AI image generator.

And I was like, oh, that is the
answer that I've been waiting for.

Um, suddenly, you know, if I'm writing
a book about Joseph Smith, yeah, I can

sell enough copies that I can probably
make that worth it, uh, to pay an artist.

But if I'm selling a book about,
you know, uh, Lowell Bud Dunum, my

great-great-grandfather, there's,
I'm never gonna sell enough

copies to make that worth it.

And so.

Anyway, I went and tried the tools
and they were terrible and, and I was

getting, you know, animals, horses
with six legs or two legs or, you

know, could not get a face to look
like a human and things like that.

I'm like, okay, it's not there
yet, but this is the answer.

And so fast forward a year, that's
when it finally kind of got to the

point where, yeah, people look like
people and you can erase the extra

leg on the horse and whatever else.

And so, um, yeah, kind of on
the entrepreneurial side of

things, that's when I, I started
making these children's books.

Um, and so I made the first four
or five about some of my ancestors

that I'm very proud of and, and
have inspired me and, and I've

shared those stories with my kids.

And, um, and then went to Roots Tech.

The church is big family history
conference last February.

Um, and.

Set up a booth there and,
and got started there.

And so it's been a side
gig for the last year.

Uh, we've done about 40
children's books now.

Most of 'em are pioneers.

Um, 'cause that's who people
care about and their ancestors.

you know, lots of World War
II stories, things like that.

Um, but that's been super fun.

Yeah, it's funny.

I'll, I'll work my day job and then
in the evenings I'm working on writing

books and, and generating and editing
and cleaning up pictures and things.

And I totally enjoy that.

Uh, just, you know, I would need to
sell 10 times as many to even think

about stepping away from my day job.

Jethro D. Jones: Well, and the thing
that's so amazing about this, uh,

this is family history storybooks.com

Jake Harmer: Yeah.

Jethro D. Jones: way, uh, since,
since you're not promoting it, I will.

Um, I think this, the idea is,
is just great and surely with AI

tools, there'll, there will probably
be copycats, like there were with

the, uh, mountain climbing gear

Jake Harmer: Yeah.

Yep.

Jethro D. Jones: you'll have people
come in and say, oh, I can do this too.

And that, that may be the case.

Uh, however, what is really cool is
you're actually doing it and you've got

several books that have been published,
and then you, they get print on demand.

Is that right?

That they just, they just, uh, people
order 'em and then they're printed.

So, you know, you don't have these
inventory, uh, issues to deal

with and, and things like that.

So whoever wants one basically can get
one, and then you can, you know, when.

All the 150 great-grandchildren of
this person buy it for all their kids,

then, you know, that's, that's cool.

And that'll be, that'll be great.

But no serious publisher would ever
say, yeah, we're gonna do this.

You know, it's just not gonna happen.

And, and what I, what I like about it
is that it also is this idea of, of

the hearts of the children turning to
their fathers in a different way than

what we usually think about, which
is we're gonna go and do temple work.

But I, think there's something deeper
to it that it's not just about temple

work, but it's also really our hearts
turning to them and saying, what

can we learn from them about how to
live this life that we're living?

What would you add there?

Jake Harmer: Yeah.

Well, I mean, today you don't have
to look very far to find someone who

has completely jettisoned, completely
thrown out their ancestors, thrown

'em under the bus, even as, as,
recent as their parents, right?

And I'm like, man, unless there, there
are instances where yeah, you, probably

should cut off your family line 'cause
they're monsters, but that's very rare.

come on.

And so I, I actually, I have, so
on my stepmom's side of my family,

one of the ancestor lines was at Hans
Mill in the, gunsmith shop or in the

blacksmith shop, and one of 'em was in
the mob on the other side of the family.

And again, you can, there are bad, stories
out there, but there's nothing that

can't be redeemed through Christ's love.

anyway, so yeah, with family
history, it's, interesting.

There's a lot of research on kids
who learn their ancestor stories.

So one study was actually, it
was taking place, it was supposed

to be a longitudinal study, um,
looking at resilience in kids.

And it started, I wanna say, in 2000.

Um, they looked, looked at
these kids and tr found a way to

gauge how resilient they were.

And then September 11th happened,
and this is kids up in the

northeast region of the us.

Um, and so they were able to run the
same, ask the same questions, and test

the same kids after September 11th.

And they found that the ones who.

It is interesting, the, the ones who
knew some family stories, so grandparents

going back, they were, uh, significantly
more resilient than the ones who didn't.

And so there's something there, uh,
and this study and, and one from

BYU recently kind of a, a meta study
of a lot of family history studies.

Um, they found a 20% reduction
in depression and anxiety, uh, in

teenagers who know some of their
family history or family stories,

which is just fascinating, you know?

Um, how many times in the
scriptures are we told?

Remember, remember, remember, you know,
remember my sons, remember like, we

just, uh, I think we look at so many
miracles, so many, uh, tender mercies in

our ancestors and our parents' stories.

You know, it could be in our own life.

Um, and you have to learn those stories.

Uh.

They help you connect with both your past.

And then I I always tell my kids, I'm
like, Hey, if Edward Bunker can lead

a handcar company of pioneers who he
doesn't understand, 'cause they all

speak Welsh and he's, he's American.

You know, if he can lead a handcar
company across the plains, you can

unload the dishwasher You know,

I'm like,

Jethro D. Jones: Yeah, that's great.

Jake Harmer: like, I promise if
they can do what they did, like you

could do hard things too, you know,
and it's, you know, it's funny.

But also, yeah, if, if they can handle,
uh, just the crazy stuff that people had

to go through in the past, then we can,
we can find the same, uh, inspiration

from, uh, from the miracles that we see.

One thing I've thought about a lot
really is, is with miracles, I think

those kind of crossover, I talk
about head, heart, hands, right?

Those crossover between
the head and the heart.

Um, where when you read about the, the
boys carrying, uh, Martin and Willie Kart

companies across the Sweetwater, right?

Like that, that's an intellectual thing.

Why would they do that?

Well, they had testimonies, right?

And it's a spiritual thing.

Um, when you look at people being
raised from the dead, people being

miraculously healed, you know,
it, it's been super interesting

writing all these children's books.

Now again, yeah, we've got 40, so
it's me, my brother, and my wife

and his wife So we've written 40
children's books over the last year.

Um, probably 30 of them are pioneer
stories, and it's amazing to me just

how many miracles are out there.

I mean, people being shot and
then miraculously healed, broken

legs being miraculously healed.

Um, tons of stories of the 3D
fights, you know, one of the nephites

appearing to someone and, and
helping them for whatever reason.

I, so these miracles, I, I guess
the way I kind of look at it.

If you want to step away from the
church or step away from your testimony,

you should have to, elder, elder
Holland, put it that you have to

step over the book of Mormon, right?

You, you have to confront the
Book of Mormon as a, uh, a

roadblock to leaving the church or
leaving your testimony, whatever.

I kind of look at
miracles in the same way.

Like if you want to step away from
your testimony, you need to confront,

okay, what actually happened then
in this miraculous situation?

Because scientifically that is impossible.

Um, and so what, how do,
how do I deal with this?

Right?

So one example, uh, it
comes to the top of my mind.

So Edward Bunker, he and
his family are traveling.

He's in his eighties at this point,
and they're traveling down to Mexico

and they're coming up on this, um,
watering hole, which, you know, he's

traveling from, uh, Bunkerville to just
outside of St. George, down to Mexico.

I mean, they're.

There's nothing there.

It's all desert.

And so you really need
to find these oasis.

And as he's going down, um, he
suddenly stops his family and says,

uh, we're gonna camp here tonight.

And they're like, it's two
miles to the watering hole.

Like, let's just go.

And he goes, Nope, we're
staying here tonight.

And the next morning they get to the
watering hole and a band of Indians

had come through and the night and
killed everyone at the watering hole.

You know, it's like, okay,
how did he know that that's

impossible for him to have known?

And so what hap right?

So how do I, if I say, okay, I'm gonna
leave the church, leave my testimony.

How do I square that?

Like, what happened there?

Maybe the story was made up, right?

Maybe it's completely fake.

Okay.

Why did he lie about it?

Right?

In his journals.

Another example, my great,
great grandmother was a convert,

uh, back east in the 1880s.

And they had been Persecuted by, uh, mobs.

After joining the church, they defended
missionaries with their rifles.

Um, one time they had
missionaries in their home and

a mob was coming up the hill.

And as they are, they're poking kind
of chinks in the cabin outta the way

so they can shoot through the cabin.

Um, the missionaries say,
hang on, let's say a prayer.

They say a prayer, A storm rolls in and
disperses the mob 'cause it's a crazy, uh,

rainstorm, thunder, lightning, all that.

Anyway, stories like that.

And then they, uh, they decide to
come to Utah and, um, they get to the

train station with a group of saints.

And the, the leader, I can't remember
his name off the top of my head, but

one of the missionaries was returning
home and he announced to everyone,

oh, we're not gonna get on this train.

It's gonna crash And so they wait and
they take the next train and they go right

past the wreckage of the first train.

It's like, that's impossible

unless.

Except for God.

Right.

And so, again, I, I think with these
miraculous stories, if you want to

step away from your belief in God
or, or the church or whatever, you

need to step over and find a way
to square, square those stories.

'cause that's impossible.

Jethro D. Jones: Yeah.

Or just outright reject them and, and say,

I, I just

Jake Harmer: liar, whatever.

Yeah.

Jethro D. Jones: Yeah.

I choose to not believe any of that,
which, which has its own problems also.

So

Jake Harmer: Yeah.

Well, and then you're just antis history

anti-science.

Right?

Jethro D. Jones: Yeah.

So the thing that's amazing is
it is your sharing these stories

that people don't know about.

You know, we, we know what
is in the church history.

The, the main players, the people
who, who played a role, the

stories that did get passed on,

Jake Harmer: Saints.

Saints is awesome for that.

If I put in

a plug for the Saints books,

like go read those, they are, they're
really well written and they, they do a

great job covering a lot of that history,
but it's a drop in the bucket, right?

You have, like you said, the, the most
important or most well-known players,

and what's cool is if you can, if
you have records from your ancestors,

they're gonna have miracles in there.

Jethro D. Jones: Yes.

And that, that's exactly the point that I
was getting to is that every single person

who has faith in Christ does for a reason
and has a testimony for some reason that

they have learned and can understand.

And it is, it is absolutely beautiful
that those things happen to every

single person who believes in Christ.

And we may not know all of those
stories, but they do exist.

And that's part of what we're trying
to do here, is to share some of those

things and, and bring those to the
forefront and help people see how God

knows each of us personally, because
that is really, really key to, to so

much of this is . There, there are so
many stories like it, that moment when

that you mentioned before about, uh, brig
Young being transf figure and looking

like Joseph Smith when he was, uh, when
he took over as president of the church.

Well, he didn't actually take
over as president of the church.

That's when they said the
Corps of the 12 was in charge.

And then, and then he
became the prophet later.

But the, that thing that happened had
thousands of saints there who all have

their own individual story, who all went
through trials and suffering and all kinds

of things to be able to have the faith
and testimony that they have and, and as

individual, as every single person is.

So too is their path and process to coming
to Christ and the experiences they had are

unique to them and and have helped them.

So I wanna talk about some
of the ways that, you know,

that God knows you personally.

What are some of those things that
have helped you learn that yourself?

Jake Harmer: Yeah.

So, um, a couple experiences that
come to mind and, and thought

about before this call, um,

So.

When, when I was 17, my mom remarried,
and again, I, I don't think there's

ever a, a divorce or remarriage
or anything like that where there,

there isn't conflict and, and stress
and frustration and everything.

And, um, and so I, yeah, going through
a lot of stuff as a teenager jumping

in right before I jumped into my senior
year of high school and everything.

And, um, uh, my mom had, I think I,
I'm trying to think if she had, I

think it was the end of my junior year.

So she had gone on her honeymoon and
I remember I was sitting in seminary

class and just, it just, hit me.

And I'm just sitting there
just oh, I, does God even care?

life's so hard, poor me, whatever.

And then the seminary teacher is flipping
through some slides and I. Pops this

picture of the savior that is hanging over
my piano in my house growing up, right?

and it's not one that I had
recognized as having seen before.

and so it, it just suddenly
hit me in that moment.

yeah, I'm here.

I care about you.

here's proof, right?

It's just, what are the odds again?

What are the odds that picture comes up
at that moment when I'm feeling completely

alone, completely rejected, whatever.

And so that, that was a really
powerful experience for me.

And then another one a year later,
kind similar, I'm, going through

the same, just frustrations
with family and, feeling, yeah.

Alone.

Um, so I'm in my freshman year in college
and, uh, I was, uh, kneeling down.

I was saying a prayer and just praying
for like, I. You know, do you care?

Um, and right then my phone rings
and so I reach up and silence it.

I, I'm saying a prayer.

Dang it.

You know, And then afterwards I pulled
a phone out and I have a voicemail

from a friend who, um, a friend
from high school, we, we connected a

little bit, uh, freshman year at BYU.

And so I listened to the voicemail and he
is like, Hey, Jake, um, uh, how are you?

Or, I was just thinking about you.

How are you?

Uh, and then he goes to ask question about
homework for a class we had together And

so it wasn't even, you know, did he really
care how I was, was he really thinking?

That's just kind of a,
you know, what we say.

But it hit me like, okay, friend called
you during the prayer to say that he's

thinking about you and cares about you.

Like, that's, that's God, right?

That's not my buddy here, And so that's
another one that just hit me like,

yes, God cares about me individually.

Um, and again, he's gonna use
somebody else most of the time

to, uh, to show that he cares.

Jethro D. Jones: Yeah, and you may have.

Other experiences where an angel appears
to you or a true miracle happens, or

you're forewarned of some major danger
and, and all those things can happen.

But how are those any more miraculous
than the picture confirming to you

that God knows you and like it?

It's one thing for you to see a picture
that was in your house growing up, but

it's another thing for you to have the
spiritual awareness to know that God knows

you personally and to have that impression
because it's not just that there was

a picture, there was also that feeling
that came with it of you are known.

It wasn't just the phone call, there
was also the feeling, the spiritual

confirmation that came with it,
saying, this isn't just a phone call.

This is also you being told you
are loved and God knows you, and

that's a really powerful thing, Jake.

Jake Harmer: Mm-hmm Well, as I think
about those miracles too, again,

those are, those are small, right?

Um, it's, yeah.

I, I think it's interesting.

We don't experience a lot, a lot of
the, the life saving physical miracles,

I think, as our ancestors did.

Um, I think part of the re Well, so I'm
not saying they, they're not, they're

not everywhere and they don't exist.

But, um, how often are we facing death?

Very rarely.

Right.

And so, yeah.

My life, can I say my life's been saved
by the spirit or by an angel or whatever.

Okay.

How of, how often is my
life actually at risk?

Um.

So this last year, um,
this, this is a long story.

I'm gonna cut super short.

Um,

Jethro D. Jones: Okay.

Jake Harmer: I went on a kayaking
trip with some friends and um, to do

the narrows in Zion and I had been
kayaking once and it turned out I

didn't know at the time the other guys
had never been whitewater kayaking.

Um,

Jethro D. Jones: Oh wow.

Jake Harmer: so long again, long
story short, I feel like the, the

story is justified and it sounds like
puts me in a really bad light, put

selling the short version, but So
I ended up ahead of everybody else.

Um, and, and the rest of the group
had spread out and dispersed and

we were kind of in a bad situation.

We were running through late at
night and it was cold and it was,

uh, sorry it wasn't late at night,
it was getting dark and everything.

I ended up, um, yeah, a
ways ahead of everyone else.

No way to contact them.

I got flipped over going through
a class five that I should have

portaged if I had known it was there.

Um, again, yeah, any kayaker's
gonna be like, you idiot But

kayak gets pinned under a tree
in the middle of this class five.

I pull myself out onto a rock and I'm
standing there and I realize like, whoa,

suddenly, you know, it just got real here.

Like, I'm, I'm

suddenly at risk of death.

Um, and so as I'm trying to figure out
what to do, I, I start praying and I'm

waiting for the next person to come.

I wait for about 20
minutes and no one comes.

I turn back and look
and the kayak is gone.

And so I, I'm still five
miles from the exit.

Um, that Kayak has my first
aid kit, my emergency blanket,

my dry clothes, my everything.

And so suddenly I'm realizing,
okay, now I'm in serious trouble.

And right at that moment, I, I thought
the, the thought came to my mind of,

um, uh, when you receive the onic
priesthood, you're promised the, the

power of the ministering of angels.

And growing up, I never
knew what that was.

I what, you know.

Yeah.

Go serve some people, be nice, whatever.

Were the angels that hits me.

And I'm like, yeah, I could use that
right now, Um, and so I, I knelt down

and prayed and I said, I, when I got
the ionic priesthood back when I was a

12-year-old snobby deacon, you know, I, I
received this and I, I need that help now.

Um, and I, uh, got up and, and decided,
okay, I need to go find that kayak.

I don't know if anyone
else is even coming.

They may have stopped
for the night, whatever.

It's kind of every man
himself at this point.

Um, so I worked my way down and, and
miraculously the kayak washed right into

it, Eddie, and was just sitting there and.

Jethro D. Jones: Wow.

Jake Harmer: I get to it.

And again, just, just relieved, uh,
overcome with the emotion there.

And then I realize my dry bag got wet
and so everything inside is, is wet just

from being under the water that long,
um, with the hydraulics and everything.

And so I'm praying, okay, should I try and
stay here and try and survive the night?

It's, it's the first week of May,
so it's, you know, when we started

in the morning, it was 37 degrees.

Like, it's not gonna be a fun day
if I get stuck in here, or fun

night if I get stuck in there.

And so praying about it
and I felt like, go ahead.

Um, and from there on it, yeah.

So up to that point I had flipped
over in every single rapid.

I would always go through the Rapid and
then e even if I made it, I would hit a

wall right at the end, um, and flip over.

And from then on I
didn't flip over anymore.

Like I would go through these rapids and.

Right at the end when I needed to turn,
you know, make a 90 degree turn to get

away from this wall, I, it was like
the back of my kayak got pushed to

the side and, and pushed me through.

And

I, I have no way to explain that I
either suddenly got really good at

kayaking, or ministering angels.

And so for me that, that, uh, yeah,
stepping back to the, well, anyway, the,

some of the other guys got life-flighted
out, not, well, they got helicoptered

out the next day and barely survived
the night and anyway, long story.

But for me it was like, okay, if I get
put in a life or death situation, yes,

miracles are real, angels are real.

most of my life, I'm not in those
situations, thank goodness, I was

talking with, one of the deacons
today and he mentioned President

Nelson's story about having a gun put
to his head and the gun not firing.

like I. Thank goodness we don't
see stuff like that hardly ever.

But those miracles do exist.

a lot of the time it's the smaller
miracles of the voicemail on your

phone or the picture that reminds me
that God cares, and those are equally

miraculous, but not as, memorable, I guess
wouldn't make it as good of a storybook.

Jethro D. Jones: Well, and, and
that's, that's what's so amazing

also, is that those situations are
no less real and no less impactful.

And yet they are regular occurrences.

And it seems like it was a regular
occurrence in the Saints, early days,

shortly after the church was
organized and, that they were just

faced with that every single day.

It seemed, and miracle, upon miracle of
them being saved, but it, still happens

that people don't get saved, right?

That people do die.

And that doesn't mean
that God wasn't with them.

Or that there, there wasn't a miracle
in their death that we don't know about.

But the the thing is, is that no matter
how big or small it, God still knows

you and still is looking out for you.

And, and sometimes we go through
things and we're like, I don't see

at all how this is a blessing or a
miracle until several years later.

And then we're like, oh, that
was, that was really good.

I'm glad I went through that trial
so that I could experience this and,

and now be able to share what it was.

And there's like, there's no miraculous
saving or anything of like that happening.

Um, but, but there is
still some sort of miracle.

And sometimes those things come from
experience and sometimes those things

come from true miracles that you see.

Sometimes it's some variation of
that, you know, and that's what's

so beautiful is that you get this
knowledge from the spirit saying,

this is why this happened to you.

And it doesn't come right away , but
you know, years later it may come.

And I've, I've had several
experiences in my life where I'm

like, that was a terrible experience.

I have no idea why that happened.

And then years later it's like, oh,
this is why that thing happened.

This is why I went through that trial
so that I can now comfort someone

in the trial they're going through.

Okay.

That, that makes sense.

Um, I wish I wouldn't have had to go
through that trial 'cause it really stunk.

But it feels so good to be able to
bless someone else's life right now.

Jake Harmer: Yeah.

And that's, that's one thing, um, with,
with parents divorce and that whole

situation, uh, just recently as I've been
able to serve and get to know more of

the youth, I've been able to bear that
testimony to some of the youth who are

going through the same thing right now.

that is, that is one of the most
powerful experiences I've ever had.

Um, sitting there telling this,
um, a teenager that, Hey, I just

want you to know, I've, I've been
there and it's, it's terrible.

It sucks, but God knows you and cares
about you and you'll get through it.

And, um, just to be able to say that
I know that I've been there, really,

I, I think makes a difference.

And I see you, right?

I, I And God sees you.

Um,

that's where I'm, I'm grateful
for the, yeah, like you said,

grateful for the experience.

I'd never pick it for myself, but
I, you know, I, I'm grateful for it.

Jethro D. Jones: Yeah, for sure.

Um, so, uh, was that story, the
Desert Island story by the chance?

Jake Harmer: Uh, oh, no.

So I kind of,

Jethro D. Jones: let's,
let's hear the Desert Island

Jake Harmer: well, this is, I, I probably
should have mentioned this early on.

One thing that one of my former
employers friends said to me was just

as I was talking about like growing
up, I just tried to do what was right.

Um, he, he told my dad one time,
he's like, Jake's the kind of guy

who, if you were to put him on a
desert island, no one else is there.

Like, he'll still get up every morning
and read his scriptures and exercise,

like, and it's just, yeah, again, I'm
grateful for the routines, grateful for

my parents, kind of drilling that into me,
but, um, I, yeah, try and do what's right.

And I feel like as I've gotten older,
I've been able to see like You're not

just doing it to jump through hoops,
you're doing it because it makes

you who you are supposed to become.

Um, I was sharing this with the
deacons a couple of weeks ago.

Um, a couple of them are pretty
sure they're gonna be in the

NFL and uh, so I talked to them.

I'm like, okay, what do you think if
you could meet with an NFL coach right

now, and here were to tell you, here
are the things that you need to do.

If you want to be in the NFL,
you know, check these boxes.

Like what is he gonna tell you?

He's like, well lift and, and eat
well, and, and, uh, sleep well and

study the game and avoid sketchy
girls and , you know, stuff like that.

Jethro D. Jones: Have
really good genetics.

Jake Harmer: yeah, yeah, yeah.

And make sure your dad's a, a college
football player, you know, whatever.

Um, and I, I'm telling you, I'm
like, you know what's interesting

is you look at those as, okay,
I'm gonna check these boxes.

And it's like, what's happening?

You're not qualifying
yourself to be in the NFL.

You are turning yourself
into an NFL player.

Right.

And so as I look at the commandments
that God's given us, it's not,

okay, jump through these hoops
and then I'll let you in.

You know, it's no, if you do these
things, you will become like me.

You'll become what I want you
to be or what you can become.

And I think that's one thing that just I
never understood for a long time and, and

is, is very misunderstood in the church.

I think a lot of people look at
it like, uh, yeah, God wants us to

jump through these hoops and, and
check the boxes and no, it's, he

wants you to turn into something.

He wants you to become like him.

And so he's showing us how to do that.

Um, which, which is, is awesome.

Yeah.

Again, it's the path is the plan
of happiness because it shows

you how to be happy now, not
just someday you'll be rewarded.

Jethro D. Jones: Mm-hmm . Yeah.

And, and that really is what
we're asked to do is become like

Christ, we are not asked to, um,
do something different than that.

You know?

That's why the, the, the primary
answers that we so often give of,

you know, reading the scriptures,
going to church, going to the temple,

saying our prayers, like that kind of
stuff, it really does matter because

when you do those on a daily basis,
then it transforms who you are.

It it truly does.

That's not just lip service.

That's not just, oh, it'd be nice,
but it's really hard to stay the

same person when you are daily
striving to improve yourself.

Jake Harmer: Yeah.

I,

Jethro D. Jones: you gotta work at

Jake Harmer: I've always thought to
myself like, no one ever leaves the

church who has a daily scripture study.

Habit you know, that you quit that
at, at, at a certain point before

you're gonna just up and leave.

Like, as you're doing those things,
you are drawing closer to Christ

and it's when you step away and get
outta the habit or whatever, that's

when you, you notice the difference.

Um, I, I remember as a teenager, um.

To kind of having, you know, picking up
my habit of scripture study or whatever.

And I remember several days where
I'd be like, man, you know, it

comes 11 o'clock or whatever.

I'm in school.

I'm just like, today's just not
going well, And then I'd realize,

oh yeah, I slept in and didn't
read scriptures this morning.

And I'd be like, oh, yeah,
okay, that makes sense.

And so that's another thing I've been
able to testify to the, to the deacons is,

Hey guys, read your scriptures every day.

I don't care if it's a verse.

Like, open the book and you'll notice
your day will go different, I promise.

And it's been cool.

A couple of them have picked up that
habit now, and, and they're bearing

their testimony to the other boys in the
quorum saying, yeah, I'm, I'm reading my

scriptures every day now, and I really
have noticed that it's made me more

optimistic and happier and whatever else.

And I'm like, yes, that's what it is.

You know, that's what it's all about.

And again, opening and reading
a few words out of any other

book is not gonna do it for you.

It's, it's this, you open the
scriptures, read the Book of Mormon.

Um, it does not make sense.

It's, you know, it's
impossible, And yet here we are.

Jethro D. Jones: Yeah.

Uh, so true.

So you're with these, uh, deacons now.

So what it, let's imagine
that you were that deacon.

What advice would you give yourself
knowing what your life is like, what

you're gonna be become, what is gonna
happen over the next almost 20 years?

What advice would you give to,
to yourself as a deacon now?

Jake Harmer: Yeah, it's, it's hard.

It's a lot of the, the primary answers you
know, God knows you, he cares about you.

Um, I, I think look at what the
world has to offer and look at the

people who go down that path and,
and see if that's who you wanna be.

Um,

uh, Jordan Peterson talks about
future authoring, um, kind of a course

that is taught to college freshmen.

They basically spend a few
hours journaling about what

they want to be in five years.

And, uh, I can't remember the stats, but
it's like anyone who takes that course,

they're 50% less likely to drop out.

And so I think the idea there is if you
have a plan in mind, you know, if I'm

talking to these 12 year olds and I say,
when you're 25, where do you wanna be?

Um, you know, we talk about this being
a, a decade never to be forgotten.

Like for these 12 year olds,
they are going to sink or

swim in the next 10 years.

You know, the next 10
years are huge for them.

Um, it's where they're going to develop
strong testimonies and, and figure

out what they wanna do in their lives.

Go on missions, get married, uh,
start a career, like that's the next

decade, a little bit more for them.

And so I just think it's, it's super
important to have that goal of, okay,

who do I want to be when I'm 25?

Just to keep that in
the front of your mind.

Um, I do find that to
be a little bit harder.

I think at my 31 to 41, I'm like,
who do I wanna be in 10 years?

I don't know but I, I, I did everything
I, I wanted to from 15 to 25.

Right.

I, I went on the mission.

I, I married my wife, I started
having kids, did my career,

graduated college, all that.

Um, and I, yeah, this is shifting
into another topic, I guess, but Yeah.

What, what are the next 10 years?

Um, it's not laid out as, as
clearly as it is when you're 12.

Jethro D. Jones: Yeah, like
you, you have so many fewer

life milestones to go through.

Um.

As you get older that it's not, it,
it's so interesting because when

you're young and like 12 or 13,
you're thinking like, this is the

next thing that I got to get to.

This is the next thing and the
next thing and the next thing.

And I had this problem when I was that age
where I was like, oh, I can't wait until

I can drive and then I can do this, or I
can date and then I can do this, or I can,

uh, graduate from high school or can't
wait till I go on a mission and all that.

And I realized like that was a terrible
way to live my life because I was

never, uh, aware of what was happening.

Then I was always looking forward to
something and, and it took me a long

time to figure it out, but it was
probably like my early twenties where

I was like, I need to just be okay
with where I'm at and not be so anxious

about looking forward to the future.

And, and, and I, I wanna take a
different approach to that and, and

it took me really until now being 43.

To saying, I actually don't
care so much about the future.

I'm still going to work and have
goals and strive for certain things,

but I'm not going to say I can't wait
for my kids to be a certain age or

grow a certain amount or whatever.

I'm going to enjoy the
moment as much as I can.

And, and that has really helped a
ton because I didn't do that for

a lot of my life and I feel like I
missed out on opportunities that I

wish I wouldn't have missed out on.

Jake Harmer: Yeah.

Jethro D. Jones: So, uh, one of
the things that I'd like to ask

is, in the last year, what's the
greatest lesson that you've learned?

Jake Harmer: Oh, greatest lesson
I've learned in the last year.

Um, I, that the experience in the narrows,
that was, that was life changing for me.

Absolutely.

Um, I think a, a brush with death, uh,
again, it gave me another, this, this

is impossible and yet it happened.

Therefore, angels are real.

Right.

Um.

It, it's changed my mindset in a lot
of things, uh, just as far as the

outdoors and preparedness and things
like that, um, made me realize I'm,

I'm Mortal Um, but aside from that, so
serving the Bishop Rick has been just,

just awesome for me to, to get, to feel
God's love for the people in the ward.

Um, we've only lived here three years
and I feel like most of the people in

the ward have been here 20 plus years.

And so it's, it's interesting.

Uh, also I'm one of the
youngest people in the ward.

Uh, up until a few months ago, like
we had, our youngest is two and a

half and she was the most recent
baby born in the ward until, uh,

about two months ago.

And so it is definitely an older ward.

And so it's, it's an interesting
dynamic, uh, for me being the

31-year-old in the Bishop Rick.

And most people are like, oh
yeah, I have grandkids your age.

Um.

But it's, it's been just awesome
getting to feel God's love

for the people in the ward.

Um, again, it's, I'm not a, a very
emotional person just by nature.

And so, uh, it's been neat to feel
that kinda expand in my heart, to

feel, feel that love for these people
who I don't really particularly no.

And would have no other
reason to care about Um, it,

it's, yeah, it's really neat.

I, I think I, I define charity,
uh, as loving everybody,

even those you don't like

Jethro D. Jones: Yeah,

Jake Harmer: Um, that's,
yeah, you feel God's love.

And I, I talk about that with my
kids or about my kids all the time.

I'm like, oh, I sure love him
even when I don't like him.

You know,

Jethro D. Jones: Yep,

Jake Harmer: especially my 4-year-old, but

Jethro D. Jones: Yeah.

Okay.

So let's, let's shift toward looking
forward, um, the, there are a few

different way things that we can
talk about here, but the, the first

one is like, what, what are you
thinking is going to be important

for you in the next 10 years?

Jake Harmer: Yeah.

So, um, 10 years from now
I've done having kids.

my my oldest will be a teenager.

I think I'm terrified for that.

Um, yeah, like, like
very terrified for that.

Uh, even though I've now seen
that teenagers can be good.

I, I'm, yeah, I'm nervous
to have a teenage daughter,

Jethro D. Jones: Yeah.

Jake Harmer: Um,

Jethro D. Jones: and she's five right now?

Jake Harmer: she's Six.

Yeah, she'll be seven next month.

So again, she's 17.

When we finish this

Jethro D. Jones: Yeah.

Wow, that's awesome.

Jake Harmer: I, so yeah, raising
teenagers, what does that mean?

How do I avoid the pitfalls?

You know, I, I'm always looking
around and saying, okay, these, this

is a really good family with a kid
that's just gone off the rockers.

And yes, there's, there's some
level of nature, but also I

really hope a lot of it's nurture

so that I can hopefully be good at it.

You know, I, and, and who knows, you
know, I, there are definitely amazing

families that put out some, uh, some
black sheep, some, some bad eggs, and

I, yeah, I hope not to have any of that.

And then we're obviously gonna do our
best to avoid any of that with the

understanding that it does happen.

I think professionally,

Uh,

Jethro D. Jones: Uh, before you go on,
I just gotta say about the teenagers.

I've been looking forward to
having teenagers my whole life.

They, yes, they are the best.

I, I was not scared of it at all, and I'm
still not, my youngest is a, is 13, so,

um, so I'll give you a little unsolicited

Jake Harmer: Please.

Yeah.

Jethro D. Jones: has really helped me.

Jake Harmer: And keep
giving it to me every year.

Jethro D. Jones: yeah, no kidding.

So, the way that, that we did it and the
way that I've seen successful families do

it, 'cause I was, I was a school principal
before, and so I saw a lot of people and

how they raised their kids and the way
they talked to 'em and stuff, and how

they convinced them to do things they
didn't want to do and, and all this stuff.

And what, what I have learned
are two really important things.

The first is we need to follow God's
path and give kids choice like we need

to let them make their own decisions
and then suffer the consequences.

. Because that's what God does for us
and he also forgives us very quickly.

So those things all need to happen.

It can be so frustrating as a parent when
your kids make the wrong choice, when you

know that it's the wrong choice, but God
provides a model and says, this is okay.

Satan is the one who says,
this is how you have to do it,

and this is your only option.

That's not the path we wanna go down.

And so we shouldn't do that with
our kids either, is my opinion.

That doesn't mean that they
get choice in everything.

Like, Hey dad, I wanna start smoking pot.

Well, sorry, that's,

Jake Harmer: Yeah.

Jethro D. Jones: you know,
that's, that's a different thing.

It's not like you just get to choose
that, but instead of saying, so

you start teaching that, right?

You teach what the right thing to do is
so that when they do make those choices,

you can still love them and you can
still forgive them and still move on.

Um.

And, and so the first piece
is model it after God.

And then the second piece is
counterintuitive, which is you can

have rules but don't have expectations.

So don't expect anything from your kids.

And, and the, let me illustrate this
with a story because I think that

it, it matters a lot when, so I have
three brothers and three sisters.

When my oldest daughter was born
there, there was a lot of talk about

whose kids were the smartest, the
most athletic, the best, whatever.

And when my oldest daughter was born,
she was born with Down Syndrome.

And all those competitions about who
would walk at what age and who would talk

at what age and who would do whatever,
they all just, it just disappeared.

Like it was just gone in a heartbeat
because we knew that my daughter was

not going to win any of those contests.

And so then we just stopped caring
about those things and we didn't have

an expectation that our kids would, by
this age do this thing or, or whatever,

because Katya was just like behind
the curve on all of those things.

And so when she rolled over at 18
months, we were like overjoyed over

the moon, excited about it, . And
then when her sister, who was born 19

months after Katya, when she rolled
over after like a month, we were

like, oh my gosh, this kid's a genius.

It's amazing.

You know?

And, but the thing is, we didn't,
we didn't care when she did it.

And so we didn't care when the
kids got potty trained, when

they slept through the night.

You know, I mean, we
did care about that one.

Lemme tell you,

that was, that's a big deal.

But like we didn't, um.

, we, it just didn't matter.

And so we have rules for our kids,
and this is how we live our life,

and these are the things we do, but
we don't have any expectation that

they're going to follow it or that
they're going to do things in the

way that we want or, or any of that.

And it's, it's tough to understand
what that really means because we still

want our kids to do what's right, but
we also don't expect that they will.

And what I mean by that is, is that we
give them permission to choose their own

lives and do what they need to do and, and
then when they do it, then we're glad and

happy when they don't do it, we're sad and
bummed, but regardless, we understand that

it's their choice to make in their life to
live, and we can then move on from that.

Does that make sense,

Jake Harmer: Yeah.

Yeah, it does.

I, it, I've got an interesting
thing in my family.

Um,

with my grandparents on both sides,
um, I've got about 50 cousins, about

25 on each side, and the youngest
on one side is 17, and the youngest

on the other side is uh, nine.

So you kind of see the age range there,
but I think probably 90 to 95% of them

are active in the church, serve missions,
marry in the temple, all of that.

Um, and then I, I, another family
that I'm, I'm very close to, it's

probably 10% same number of kids.

And that's one thing I just, again,
talking about nature versus nurture.

It just, yeah.

It makes me think about what, what do
I do so that I can continue on this

legacy and not embrace that legacy.

Right.

And what, what causes that?

You know?

And

interesting to think
about, I if that one, even

a, a lot of them serve missions and then
around 22 years old, I, I almost look

at it as a curse on the family that they
all step away from the church and kind

of go crazy by 22 years old, even after

having served mission, some married
in the temple, things like that.

It's, it's, it's just really
interesting where it's probably 90%

of them have left versus my family,
where it's 95 plus or rock solid.

Jethro D. Jones: yeah.

It's, it's, it's so fascinating
and we have to remember this is a

long game that the Lord is playing.

You know, we, we have a long time to make
these decisions and come back to Christ,

uh, regardless of how far away we go.

Um, so, okay.

Uh, what, because you are, um.

You are in this, uh, AI creation space.

What do you think is the greatest
invention or discovery that's

going to be in the next 10 years?

Jake Harmer: I, I think AI video is
going to completely change the world.

Um, again, it's in its infancy right
now, or you can generate a video,

but if you ever try to take a, a
picture and then throw it into one of

those video generators, it's weird.

It doesn't, just doesn't work yet.

Um, but 10 years from now, I would imagine
you're gonna be able to sit down and

say, uh, I'd like to watch a video of.

David W. Patton, seeing Kane on the banks
of the river, you know, like, or, uh,

you, anything you want, and you're gonna
say, and I wanna see this actor playing

this, this character and, and this story.

And you can sit down and watch a
two hour movie and you won't be

able to tell that it's not real.

I, I, within 10 years, I've totally
confident that's gonna happen.

And what does that mean for the world?

Um, president Nelson's talked about
if you, you know, if you don't have

the Holy Ghost guiding your life,
like you cannot know truth, it'll be

impossible to survive spiritually, right?

Without the guiding
impact of the Holy Ghost.

And that's gonna be the case.

I mean, you're gonna see video, think
about, think about watching the news

where you have no idea what's real.

And we're, we're pretty
close there already.

But when you're seeing videos of, let's
say, the prophet saying something that,

no, he never said that it we're, pretty
much there now where you can create those

videos of deep fakes and all that, but.

It will absolutely become impossible
to know what is real and what is

not, unless the spirit testifies.

And so that's, it's gonna be amazing
in some ways and, the death of truth.

in others.

Yep.

Jethro D. Jones: and to that point,
there's going to be things that are, we

are gonna have a hard time telling what
is true and even the very elect will be

deceived at prophesizing in Matthew 24.

So we are going to.

Some of us who are great, strong
members of the church who have

testimonies are going to be deceived.

And like you said, the Holy Ghost is
going to be the dispenser of truth.

And that's the only way that we'll know.

And that is frightening, but
also incredibly empowering.

That if you are close to the spirit,
then you won't be let astray.

But if you are trusting
other things more than that.

and this is the other thing about
kids, is that we have taught our

kids from before they got baptized
that the gift of the Holy Ghost is a

very real thing that literally can be
with them every single day, all day.

And if you ask any of my kids, what
is the thing that dad always harps on?

It is always personal revelation that
you need to receive it yourself and you

have to, uh, be responsible for that.

And as I've worked with my kids and
going through . Challenges and trials

they face, I always put it back on them
to seek revelation from the Holy Ghost

and, and, and make that the way they make
decisions even when they're nine years

old, even when they're eight years old
and like they have to know how to do that.

That is absolutely essential in my
mind for them to experience that and

not just for them to hear about it and
hear other people do it, but for them

to actually experience it themselves.

Jake Harmer: Yeah.

And, and learn now before it gets
crazy I, I think, you know, learn

what the spirit feels like, learn
how it communicates with you.

It is different for everybody.

Um, and yeah, learn as soon as you can.

'cause it, it really, it's
going to be very interesting.

I, I think a lot about if I had
no belief in God or whatever, man.

The future is bleak

Jethro D. Jones: Yeah, no kidding.

I'm right

Jake Harmer: is.

Uh, yeah, it is, it is a scary place.

But, but with the spirit, you
know, with, with the church,

with the gospel, I'm excited.

You know, the world's

got a lot of wonderful things.

Yep.

Jethro D. Jones: Yeah, for sure.

Um, so, uh, let's keep
thinking about the future.

Um, you're gonna have a
baby here pretty soon.

Uh, the, that's gonna take
some adjustment, right?

This is your third kid, so,
um, fourth kid, excuse me.

Um, so that's going to, to require some
changes and adjustment and, and that what

are you, what are you thinking about that.

Jake Harmer: Yeah.

So, um,

we, uh, this one took a little bit
longer to, to come to us, and so, uh,

we're in a good spot now where the,
the youngest is Almost potty trained

and we can go do things as a family.

And you know, she's almost outta
nap time and things like that.

And now it's a hard reset which is
one of the hardest things for me.

I, I, I like babies.

I really like toddlers and, and,
uh, little kids or even more fun

'cause we can share my hobbies with
them, you know, and, uh, and so

yeah, it's, it's a, it's a reset.

Um, I'm looking forward
to it in a lot of ways.

It will be difficult too to, to slow down.

I, I, I'm looking forward to just
life stopping for that first month

of the baby's life where okay,
this is really all that matters.

And, And, of course I'll be on
rest of the other three kids outta

the room duty for for a while.

Um, but I, yeah, it just, it's a
reminder of what actually matters,

um, to get a new baby in the house.

Definitely looking forward to that.

It, but it's, yeah, it's a lot more work.

Hopefully we can be out of diapers
before we get back into diapers.

We don't have any overlap.

Jethro D. Jones: Yeah.

We, at one point we had
three kids in diapers

and Oh, that was, that was brutal.

So our, we switched to cloth diapers
and our second child was like, I'm done.

I'm, I'm potty training.

I, I don't want any
business, any part of this

business.

Jake Harmer: I've seen stats on that,
that yeah, kids used to be potty trained

by 18 months routinely, and now it's
three because diapers are comfortable.

Jethro D. Jones: Yeah,
they're, they're not that bad.

So

Jake Harmer: I need to throw
a, an electrode in there.

And

Jethro D. Jones: there you go.

Jake Harmer: a joke

for legal reasons.

Jethro D. Jones: joke, everybody.

Not serious . Um, so what,
what great thing do you think

God is preparing you for?

Jake Harmer: yeah.

I, you know, there's, there's no
greater work than raising my kids.

I've, I'm convinced to that
and I'm grateful for that

challenge and, and opportunity.

Um.

Huh.

I wrote down a goal at the end of
my mission that I, I had a goal

to baptize more people after my
mission than during my mission.

Um, I've not gotten very far on

Jethro D. Jones: There's still time.

You got a lot, you got a lot
more time than two years.

Jake Harmer: have, yeah.

I should have served
in, uh, Germany instead.

Brazil's gonna be a little bit harder

Jethro D. Jones: that would've helped.

Jake Harmer: but yeah, I've
gotta have a lot more kids.

Um, no, but I, I, I, yeah, I, I
thoroughly enjoy serving in the church

there and getting that, um, I, yeah,
so, so my patriarchal blessing says

that I'll serve at some point as a,
a, a, a shepherd in Israel, right?

So as a bishop at some point,
I don't know when that will be.

I, I really hope it's not until
I know more no more stuff, um.

And I'm a, a better person and all that.

I, yeah.

I don't know when that will be.

I know, but I, yeah.

I believe in my patriarchal
blessing and I, I I'll do it.

I don't, yeah.

I always say that the guy who wants
to be on the stand should not be

on the stand, and I definitely
don't wanna be on the stand.

it was, it was fun sitting
in the back with my kids.

Um, so yeah, thi things like
that, that I keep in mind,

like, okay, I am, I living now.

So that when you know that I'm ready
for that, whenever that comes, um,

and what can I learn now and can
I learn what I need to quickly so

I can get outta that, that trial?

I, I, so I would, I would love
to be more public just with,

just with my testimony, I guess.

Uh, I've tried to be better.

Like I said, I'm trying to.

Actually contribute on Twitter
a little bit and share things

on Instagram and Facebook.

I, I see so much negativity about the
church and negativity about being a dad

or parenting and, you know, all these moms
complaining about their kids and stuff.

I'm like, no, kids are the best.

Like, that's the purpose
of life, you know?

And so I've, I've tried to be a
little bit more public with that.

Um, 'cause, you know, I, I work
from home and I live in a town

where I only know people in my ward.

So I, I just don't get out that much.

And so that's kinda my chance
to communicate with people.

Um, I, yeah, I, I would love to be
just a little bit more public facing, I

guess, in that advocacy for the gospel.

Jethro D. Jones: I, I have felt that
also over the past couple years.

And, um, having been in, uh,
public school for so long, I, it,

it wasn't appropriate for me to

Jake Harmer: Right, right.

Jethro D. Jones: public about it.

Right.

And so now I'm not.

And so I feel like I can be more,

and, and it's, it's really felt good doing
this podcast and doing, uh, latter Day

Lent, which, um, teaches people about lent
in the church, Jesus Christ, Lord Saints,

which we don't celebrate, but, or observe.

Um, but that's been a lot of fun
too, is, is doing these things that

are more true to who I really am.

And, you know, I definitely feel like
I've put my light under a bushel.

Uh, for some time,

and rather than starting that
bushel on fire, making the light

bigger, it has blocked the oxygen
and made that light smaller,

and I really want to be
better about that too.

Jake Harmer: yeah.

With, with my family history storybooks,
um, I, I'm always, I'm hesitant to, to,

you know, have a business that's, I don't
know, I. Close to the church at all?

Um, don't want to, yeah.

I don't have any conflict of interest
there or anything, but it's been so fun.

'cause with that I can, uh, you
know, I, I make all the books.

I put ' em into family search,
so all of these pioneers, you

know, those books are free.

Right?

Everything's free for download.

I, I, I, it's, it's kind of fun.

I can just say, yeah, yeah.

I don't, I don't need this
money for this business.

I don't really see it
being a full-time career.

That would be awesome, you know, in the
next 10 years if it really took off and I

could bring on writers and, and all that.

Or if, or if the AI gets to the point
where it, it's just fast and cheap to do.

Right.

Um, but for

now,

Jethro D. Jones: you can just provide
the tool for people to do it for

Jake Harmer: right?

Yeah.

Well, there is actually, there's a,
uh, a copycat that has it that way.

Now, the AI is not anywhere near.

Good enough for that, in my opinion.

And so I always, I, if someone comes
across that, I say, go try that.

Go try them, and then come to me
when when you want something done.

Right.

Um, yeah.

But I, I think that is the future.

And so again, is this a, a career?

Probably not.

You know, it's, it, I've got kind
of the golden handcuffs of how

am I gonna replace my salary?

Not with this, but this has been a lot
of fun and it's, I, I enjoy writing the

stories, I enjoy doing the research.

Um, and I, it's a good thing that I'm
doing, um, helping people connect with

their ancestors, and again, making the
books free, trying to get, um, people to

care, publishing the miracles out there.

That's one thing I'm trying to
do now with my Instagram page

more, um, for the business, is to
just share some of the stories.

And it's fun to be able to, you
know, every single book I've done so

far has been about a member of the
church Uh, it's, it's not meant to

be that way, it's for anybody but.

Somehow only church members
care about their ancestors,

And so anyway, I yeah, I,

Jethro D. Jones: there's a promise

Jake Harmer: yeah, yeah.

Well, I always joke, I'm like, man, I need
the spirit of Elijah to work harder here.

'cause I need more sales

Jethro D. Jones: Yeah.

Jake Harmer: Uh, but I,
yeah, I, I love doing this.

Um, I really do feel like it is making
the world a better place, you know, as

well as, uh, making it so I feed my kids

Jethro D. Jones: Yeah.

Yeah.

That's awesome.

Well, uh, Jake, this has been
awesome chatting with you

and I really appreciate this.

I'm looking forward to talking
with you over the next decade

to see where your life goes.

Um, and, you know, not to scare you or
anything, but I was called to be a bishop

at 33 and my patriarchal blessing doesn't
say anything about me being a bishop.

So, you know, just, just saying that

Jake Harmer: That's what I say.

I, I live in St. George though.

There are so many guys in their fifties,
sixties, seventies, eighties in my

ward who would be amazing and have
been bishops and sick presidents and

everything else.

Like, no, I'm a kid.

Jethro D. Jones: Yeah.

Well, you know, out of the mouth babes.

Don't forget that part.

So . All right, well this has been
awesome and uh, I look forward

to chatting with you again.

We'll stay in touch between now and then,
but people won't hear from you again

for another year unless they go find you
online and start following you there.

So thanks so much for being here.

Jake Harmer: All right.

I appreciate the opportunity to be here.